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Comments on: The Ligature Legacy https://voynichportal.com/2018/10/30/the-ligature-legacy/ Ruminations about the mysterious 15th century "cipher manuscript" Mon, 09 Dec 2019 18:25:57 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.5.2 By: John Comegys https://voynichportal.com/2018/10/30/the-ligature-legacy/#comment-13055 Mon, 09 Dec 2019 18:25:57 +0000 https://voynichportal.com/?p=6497#comment-13055 Transcription of the Codex Osuna by Dr. Cortes Alonso. Figures claimed by Tucker, Talbert and Janick to be examples of EVA k sounding tl are underlined following illustrations posted by J. K. Petersen on Voynich Portal in his posting entitled The Ligature legacy.
Folio 7-469r Line 2
2) tetnamitl ayamo tlaxtlahua yn itlapixcahuan yn totlatocauh yn su
3) mag(estad) yn desorrero yn dondador yn fador
The first sample, taken from a sample of Nahuatl text clearly demonstrates that EVA k is transcribed as tl. [Spanish loan words are in the text, for example mag. for magestad – majesty, desorrero for el tesorero — the treasurer, and fador for factor.]
Note the EVA v above the ‘y’s acts as a tilde and thus replaces the n in yn the nahuatl demonstrative usually translated as ‘the’. Note the EVA a’s transcribed as ‘a’. Note the EVA d or perhaps EVA j transcribed as ‘s; in desorrerro.
3) tierra hasta que murió, como a los demás lo qual
4) declaron por lengua del dicho intérpete con juramento,
5) y en todo lo demás que tienen declarado del dicho vissorey
6) e oydores, se entiende la mitad del año a questa-

“Codex Osuna” folio 7-469 recto Lines 3 and 4, and folio 25-487 Lines 3 through 6, inclusive as transcribed by Vicenta Cortes Alonso in Pintura del Gobernador, Alcaldes y Regidores de México Estudio y Transcripción, Ministerio de Educación y Ciencia, Dirección General de Archivos y Bibliotecas (1976) [pages are not numbered]

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By: John Comegys https://voynichportal.com/2018/10/30/the-ligature-legacy/#comment-12340 Fri, 12 Jul 2019 11:08:44 +0000 https://voynichportal.com/?p=6497#comment-12340 In reply to D.N. O’Donovan.

This is because no one could possibly write on an old piece of vellum? The word palimpsest doesn’t exist, and Lincoln’s Gettysburg Address is a fraud because it could not possibly have been written on the back of an old envelope? Bye the way, in another matter, D. O. thank you for pointing out earlier references to and support for the Mesoamerican Hypothesis that those of Tucker et alia including your own and that of the Comegys twins.

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By: John Comegys https://voynichportal.com/2018/10/30/the-ligature-legacy/#comment-12234 Sat, 29 Jun 2019 18:06:52 +0000 https://voynichportal.com/?p=6497#comment-12234 Above I mistakenly said that the tl’s on the left suggest the reading direction is left to right. This is an error. Tl is a very common noun ending in Nahuatl, and since there are about twice as many tl’s on the left as on the right that suggests that the reading direction is reversed, that is right to left, as in Arabic or Hebrew. I checked this against a sample Nahuatl text and found the preponderance of tl’s were at the end or the words aand when written left to right are on the right. Since the number of tl’s is greater on the left in the Voynich Manuscript this suggests the reading direction is reversed.

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By: John Comegys https://voynichportal.com/2018/10/30/the-ligature-legacy/#comment-12215 Thu, 27 Jun 2019 23:41:51 +0000 https://voynichportal.com/?p=6497#comment-12215 JK: I enjoyed the precision and logic of your article and found it refreshing. However, you cite my work and lump it together with the logic of professors Janick and Tucker. Please don’t.
I agree that the paleography of Janick and Tucker is inadequately researched and their reasoning circular. They do not, as do you and I, base their opinion of the sound values of the Voynich letters on the scholarly opinion of paleographers and experts.
You examined their citation that examples of the Voynich letters EVA T and may be found in the Codex Osuna. Like you I was unable to find the form of the EVA t in any of their cited sources. You may find a good clear example of EVA t on page 74 in appendix IV-3 to my monograph Voynich Manuscript: Aztec Herbal from New Spain on my website http://voynichms.com or posted on academia.edu. It is transcribed by the author as ‘tl’ and is found in the Codice Santo Toribio Xicotzinco Documento A. I cite Meade de Angulo, Mercedes (1985) Dos códices del pueblo de Santo Toribio de Xictotzingo, Tlaxcala. Universidad Autónoma de Tlaxcala, México, but the illustration and transcription may also be found in La Escritura Pictografica en Tlaxcala by Luis Reyes Garcia (1993) I have seen that work in its entirety on the web but not lately. A less clear example may be found in one of the documents associated with the Codex Aubin, but not in the Codex Aubin per se.
A good clear example of EVA k may be found in first line of the second folio of the Codice de Otlazpan. It is used in the name Otlazpan spelled ‘Otlazpa’. Leander, Birgitta. (1967). Códice de Otlazpan: Acompañado de un Facsímile del Códice. [Codex of Otlazpan: Accompanied by a Facsimile of the Codex] Instituto Nacional de Antropología e Historia: México, D. F. Unfortunately, I did not include that in my appendix and I have not found a good online source.
You mentioned that the tl does not match well with Nahuatl word order. If by that you mean that there are more tl’s on the left margin than right, then perhaps, as my brother James Comegys suggested back in 2001 and earlier, this means the manuscript is better read from left to right.
You are quite right that the example of EVA t cited by Janick and Tucker is transcribed ‘de’. I told them so and they cite my work, but not the correct location of EVA t. They then go on to strongly disagree with the work of my brother who is trained in linguistics and who like them offers a partial translation, but no precise historical evidence.
In part I did the research to find historical evidence of the alphabet in order to prove or disprove my brothers earlier work. I do support the general thesis that the Voynich Manuscript has a Mesoamerican provenance based on the MesoAmerican art style and content, and the alphabet.
The circularity of reasoning you cite may, I believe, be avoided by starting with the historically cited sound values of the Voynich letters. I do not subscribe to the methodology of Janick, Tucker, or necessarily to that of James Comegys in the matter of the historically attested sound values of the Voynich Manuscript or their translations.
Like you I think that clear proof of the content and provenance of the Voynich Manuscript must await a clear translation. Frances Berdan told me that the provenance of a document cannot be certain until it can be read.
I have not yet published or offered any translations, although I am working on another article to explain the alphabet and a partial translation based on historically atested Voynich will be part of it.
If you will send me your email I will be happy to scan a picture of any of the letters you mentioned.
Thank you for your clear thinking.
John Comegys

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By: D.N. O'Donovan https://voynichportal.com/2018/10/30/the-ligature-legacy/#comment-10415 Sat, 03 Nov 2018 14:04:59 +0000 https://voynichportal.com/?p=6497#comment-10415 I have to agree with the authors that

“Simply put, there is no way a manuscript written on vellum that contains a sunflower and an armadillo could have been written before 1492,”

and since our best information is that the vellum was made between 1400-1438, then it follows that persons who imagine they see in the drawings and armadillo or a sunflower are – simply put – wrong.

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