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Comments on: Cards and Containers https://voynichportal.com/2020/05/02/cards-and-containers/ Ruminations about the mysterious 15th century "cipher manuscript" Mon, 17 Aug 2020 00:23:18 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.5.3 By: J.K. Petersen https://voynichportal.com/2020/05/02/cards-and-containers/#comment-14108 Mon, 17 Aug 2020 00:23:18 +0000 https://voynichportal.com/?p=10019#comment-14108 In reply to D.N.O’Donovan.

D.N. O’Donovan: “They are not chalices – the chalice was a ritual vessel used – by priests – in the context of the sacraments, and most usually of the Mass.”

My understanding is that a chalice is a footed drinking vessel. There are also some described as “lidded chalices” by museums that include a lid. In medieval manuscripts, lidded chalices are frequently drawn in contexts where precious materials are being transported or given as gifts.

Some chalices are used for religious ceremonies. The term is not specific to ritual vessels. Since you feel differently, I looked up the definition of chalice in 10 major sources, and while religious/ritual uses for a chalice are mentioned in most of them, many of them list a general definition of a drinking vessel as the first definition.

I see a chalice for ritual uses as a subset of the general category of chalice.

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By: D.N.O'Donovan https://voynichportal.com/2020/05/02/cards-and-containers/#comment-14100 Fri, 14 Aug 2020 19:40:59 +0000 https://voynichportal.com/?p=10019#comment-14100 I think it is important to take notice of context for the various sorts of containers in the western medieval manuscripts, as well as noting the changes in fashion over time – and also to be aware of the function intended for objects from the non-western sources.

For example, an image you cite from Brit.Lib. Add 47682 (c. 1330s), the image represents the three Marys bringing unguents to Christ’s tomb, and it is not unusual to see the models used for such images (as for those of the Magi) will be imported or eastern Mediterranean vessels. They are not chalices – the chalice was a ritual vessel used – by priests – in the context of the sacraments, and most usually of the Mass.

Similarly,where you cite BSB CLM 13002, a manuscript made outside England and two centuries earlier, you describe the vessel as a ‘chalice’ though again it is not. As you say, the text is one about medicine, and the image is allegorical, not religious. It shows ‘the daughter of Babylon’ with ‘Cupidity’ (Greed) and is meant to criticise the sort of women who bought ‘babylonian’ unguents and perfumes. Here again, we may suppose such things were being done by the wealthiest, and the form of imported vessels was also known. Even later, in images of European pharmacies, you may (and do) find that shelves are pictured with the rarest and most exotic ingredients, signified by the form of the vessels.

I don’t say that some parallels for the Vms’ containers mightn’t occur in some western manuscripts, but in order to take the correct inference, it is vital to first establish these issues of date, content and intended significance.

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